As written here:
An analysis of survey results from the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles (HERI/UCLA) indicates that the popularity of computer science (CS) as a major among incoming [first year students] at all undergraduate institutions has dropped significantly in the past four years.
The survey was made in 2005 and the Higher Education Research Institute people only looked at US universities. Nevertheless, I think that this trend is general and is relatively easy to understand.
The first peak, which happened around 1983, was when the microcomputer became pervasive. Suddenly, computers were affordable and many people could finally afford to buy one. This was the era of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64. Geeks could finally opt to join a department full of other geeks :-)
The decline from 1986 to 1996 was when people realized that having (or even liking) a computer at home to play games does not make you a Computer Scientist. Being a Computer Scientist implies thinking like a Computer Scientist and not merely liking computers…
The second peak, which happened around 2000, was when Internet came together with its bubble. Lots of youngsters chose CS as they wanted to create the new IBMs and Microsofts. They wanted to emulate Google and Yahoo! and they thought this was easy.
The decline from 2000 onwards was when people found out that emulating Google and Yahoo! was not easy. Sure, they loved to browse the web but they could not build a successful company. And the whole Western economy nearly crashed!
The situation in Mauritius
According to my observations, we had a peak a few years ago when people started talking about the Cyberisland concept. Lots of youngsters chose CS because they dreamed of working in the Cybertower to get a lot of money. This is when lots of centers offering “computer” courses appeared out of nowhere…
Since then, I have notice a decline. Many youngsters have realized that one needs the correct aptitudes to succeed in CS. If someone does not have those aptitudes, then it’s much better for that person to choose something else where he/she has a much higher probability of succeeding. They have also found out that things are not that rosy in the Cybertower…
This is a good thing in my opinion.
Mauritius is a small country with few resources. It’s so much better to let people chose their career based on their aptitudes. Some will become great Computer Scientists. And some will become great singers. That’s how it works everywhere else.
Ask Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson.
nice post, since i was feeling like this lately, was talking about the cindy, seeing so many ppl registering for that course year after year, we both think that this course is worth nothing nowadays, since:
> everyone has a CS degree (not to say that IS students gets the best network course :s:s:s:s).
> Many (atleast in my class), just always think that what they learn in that course is the only real thing.
> The system seems to be more about how much info you can store in your head rather than how much processing you can do.
> Not seeing the magic in it anymore, nor even the mystical part, everything seems to look business like, everything seems formal. (damned i wonder whether one day they’ll even force sys admins to come to work wearing ties!).
> The course seems to be more holding progress than allowing progress, since ppl (atleast me) need to hold whatever they want to learn, so as to try to hold the maximum amount of text books in head for the next week test, or write some code for a boring assignment which focuses mainly NOT on the stuff that we are supposed to learn.
(there are some modules which does great,parallel bon la, pa tousE, am thinking of other modules la).
> People want to make money quick, hence turns toward certifications instead of CS courses, as those are done quickly and hence job is quickly available. (not talking about me la, as i have no worries for jobs, am in it for something else, am talking about the rest of the world, since certifications has grown up a lot around everyone runs to it bypassing the CS courses, koi que.. certifications are really nice).
> :p no one wants their kids to do CS [there’s few who wants their kids to go in a field which doesn’t seem to have firm roots and security]
+s3|v3n
i want ma kids to do CS!! I want them to b able to think out of the box. have a challenge and learn sumfin new everyday! u dun have that in other fields, especially other engineering fields which have set rules and principles for everyfin.
i’ve been workin as a developer for the past 4 months and i’ve enjoyed every single day! The satisfaction u get when u finally get ur code to work…well thats almost orgasmic ( stress on almost :P)…nufin beats trying some voodoo programming and have it actually work lol!
so if ma kids wanna grow up n be CS, (not a nerdy/geeky type tho), well they’ll have ma support!!
Mauritius is small right.. but what are the options one have coming with a science background at uom?
we can opt for advance sience studies.. but after that, what careers options we have? (limited only to teaching!!!)
while with CSE we have a range of possible career options including teaching.
as you said Mauritius is a small island, doing something that gives more options at the end of my Bsc seemed to be appropriate when i joined the course :)
coming to choosing the correct course.. well personaly i think the whole education system is crap.. @ secondary level we were taughts stuffs just to get through the cambridge hsc papers..
learning should be fun but here its stressful!!
What are the “aptitudes” that you are talking about??
I feel that I have to comment on the post. It seems to me that Mauritius lack people with computer knowledge…Not to mention,we lack computers and connection to the internet….
But you seem not to be bothered by the fact that there is a decline in interest.
True not everyone would become great computer “scientist”. But I do think a lot of people can get their degree and become very competent in the workforce. UOM cannot expect to produce computer scientists by that people who come up with great ideas, publish in top peered reviewed journals…The problem is very simple: Lack of quality research done by the Lecturers. The students at UOM themselves are not bad. Hence my concern about the so called right aptitude that the students should have.
UOM get the best students in the country. If you look at how many people take the HSC and how many get into UOM… So if they don’t have the right aptitude, it,s the University’s fault.
Please don’t take that personally. I am a former student at UOM and now I teach at a top department in the US.. So I can compare…
I’m asking myself.On 30 modules or above you do in a CS degree,no matter what institution you’re following your courses,how many will be useful in your future work career?
Networking -> Obviously not.Certifications (CCNA,CCDA,MSCE,RHCP) or a master with specialisation in networking is the best acreditation and suits far better than a single networking global-treatment module in a CS degree.Also,kapave count lor 1 la main komien bons sys admins nou ena dan nou pays,bane c ki apprane sa book MCSE in 1 month la trop bcp ena sa.Bizin fair filter pou gueter komien vrais sys admins ena dan nou pays.Gere 1 parc PC’s from a to z li pas evident du tout sa.
Software Development -> How many enterprises in our country use assembly language as a development one? For me there shouldn’t be a dedicated module on assembly language but an introductory during first year ones.Many companies recruit developers with VB 6.0 knowledge coupled with a thorough knowledge of SQL Server(Haven’t done VB in tertiary,i assume that this is VB.NET with SQL DB connection and request data).This is the same as Shell programming.There’re certifications which are suited for that.Mo penser 1 CS degree c’est ene regroupement bane pieces tou sa bane certificates la.
Web Design and programming -> Actuellement mo penser que c’est le seul creneau qui valorisé àMaurice.In UTM and UOM there’s a module on web programming.There’re also web design certs in HMTI also.Avec le Web 2.0 et la technologie AJAX ena plus perspectives de recrutement qui fair 1 peak de sa creneau la.
Hi all,
First of all, thanks for your comments.
To Selven:
What you wrote about “Not seeing the magic in it anymore, nor even the mystical part, everything seems to look business like, everything seems formal.” is mostly true.
Tertiary-level is supposed to be very gratifying both for the students and the lecturer. Personally, I (still) get a lot of pleasure teaching my classes… and I hope you too on the receiving end.
To Val:
CS is great for those who have the right aptitudes for doing CS… which brings us
To Chervine:
The right aptitudes? I don’t really know but I would say:
* Thinking abstractly (a computer is just a tower of abstractions after all)
* Thinking in terms of computation (i.e. sequence, selection, iteration)
* Liking Maths as (in my opinion) CS = Maths + Time + Space
* Liking to experiment (like using Linux and Open Source Software, trying out new programming languages, building your own computer, setting up your own network, etc)
* etc.
To Vicks:
Personally, I see a big difference between being a Computer Scientist and being an IT Professional. And, personally, I would like this to be reflected in the programmes offered. CSE would be where Computer Scientists are. And programmes like Information Systems, Software Engineering (to be launched in IIT-UoM shortly) and Networking (hypothetical) would cater for IT professionals.
To A:
You are right in a way. If the UoM was a research university (which is not really the case because of lack of, ahem, everything), academics would have done more research. And the students would (obviously) have formed part of the whole process.
Incidentally, A, if you want to collaborate with us on some research project, we would be delighted :-)
To lolocse:
I’m not sure that a module should be “relevant” to your future career. CS is not IT.
For instance, when I was a student, I learned:
* Logic programming
* Operating systems
* Digital signal processing
* Robotics
* Neural networks
* etc.
none of which is especially “useful” for me today but which, in a way, made me what I am. I am grateful I learned those. I would have despised being in a Java school…
My point is that, in a university, students should be exposed to new trends and concepts. The ones used in industry can be easily acquired by reading one of those “Learn X in 10 days” books.
I know this might sound too idealistic but I guess I am one :-)
val said: i want ma kids to do CS!! I want them to b able to think out of the box.
A CS course… imho, does exactly the opposite … atleast for what i have seen around :p, but then, i am a below average kid, but that’s just my opinion :p.
I believe its at work that you get that “be able to think out of the box”, e.g at work i get that feeling.
avinash said: * Liking Maths as (in my opinion) CS = Maths + Time + Space
aaaaie csyke help :p, :p y do i hate that maths :p probably that’s why am bad in that field, mais quand meme :p maths is scary, enfin, been running away from it for 3 years, hopefully for the fourth year i’ll face my fear.
Bizin fair filter pou gueter komien vrais sys admins ena dan nou pays.
ajay is the king of em all :p
+selven
Java schools are not bad at all. Look where India is today thanks to [albeit] VB schools.
I am mostly a self-taught computer programmer. My two years doing the BTS-IG course were mostly to formalise my knowledge with a degree that I could show to potential employers.
Pre-disposition is overrated. Besides, one has to have a first contact with computers for one to develop the interest. So, not having the proper aptitudes is not the cause of the problem; instead, the right culprit is poor career guidance. Does the UoM invite professionals in for talks about the real world? (In hindsight, the great thing about BTS-IG was the compulsory work placements — many of my class admit to learning more during these short working experiences than during the entire course.)
True Eddy.
Work placement (stage) is where you learn the trade. I did my placements at Currimjee Informatics, Technodigit and Sunopsis and I really learnt a lot there. I still (very fondly) relate my experience to my current students from time to time.
It’s a pity that my current students do not have any compulsory work placement to do. They can do one voluntarily though :-)
CS and IT are much different. Though an IT department is essential, IT people do not usually develop software. Some may do but certainly don’t do so with the same purpose as software developers. The undergraduate university experience gives one a vocabulary, an encyclopedia as well as a whole library; the ability to retrieve more knowledge.
The rest, if joining the workforce is the objective, is usually problem-domain specific and may require other peripheral knowledge can only be acquired “on the field”. e.g. How to keep track of tasks? How to motivate developers? How to communicate with non-technical people? How to manage customer expectations? How to share prior experience?
I disagree with thinking about certifications as a substitute for a computer science education. Certifications usually teach how to apply a dogma in a very narrow scope, usually with a vendor-specifc tie-in rather than teaching the underlying principles. Will the RHCP or MCSE teach network theory and graph algorithms? Internet protocols? Routing protocols? Perhaps the certifications could be complementary to a CS education, but they have diverging objectives.
To achieve mastery, it is essential to understand the underlying principles. The reason to learn computer architecture and assembly is to learn the basic building blocks of the computer technology in vogue at the moment. i.e. Knowledge of the Von Neumann architecture is essential in understanding C, operating systems and languages based on it. On a higher level, to master Java/Python/VB, one should first understand how compilers work and how the JVM functions. Java schools, I expect, won’t teach at that level.
On another note, the Von Neumann architecture won’t be around forever. Programming becomes tricky with multi-core CPU’s, hard drives will become a thing of the past as the cost for solid-state memory collapses etc. The decisions to produce machines with such an architecture was due to costs and technology available for mass production at the time. Someone without that kind of understanding will have a harder time understanding some implementation constraints for an OS, or to come up with another architecture.
In situations with tight constraints, be it memory or computational power, no amount of Java-schooling will teach the required algorithmic knowledge and analysis. Learning the words is only so much, learning how to write a beautiful essay is what is required. I agree that a university doesn’t guarantee a level of proficiency, just the same that someone without one may achieve the same knowledge. However, it would seem to me that the most direct way of getting there is by studying CS. Some businesses only require “code-monkeys” to crank out a vast amount of low-quality code, some require a very careful and intelligent approach to development, most require a bit of both.
my post is with a caveat. When I say “computer science education” and “undergraduate degree”, I assume that the teaching and evaluation methods are adequate, which may or may not be applicable to UoM
Yes Olivier, this is the most important point.
Computer Science is not Information Technology. I often use this analogy with my students:
Like I mentioned above, I would like this distinction to be reflected in the programmes offered at university level. You would have one CS programme (say of about 30-40 students) and different IT programmes (Information Systems, Software Engineering and Networking each one with 30-40 students).
If things are done properly, everyone will be satisfied. The born IT persons will thrive in the IT programmes and the born CS (who dreams of algorithms and complexity) will enjoy himself/herself in the CS programme.
This is my public stance.
an example… the network course at univ (3rd years)…i.e according to your example, will show you how theoritically a ‘car’ is designed), but unfortunately, never how to drive one nor how one is designed in real life :p
Olivier,
While your description of CS hits the mark, I don’t think that IT is as clearly-defined as you put it and as we would want it to be. I would think that software development is the application of technologies from different branches of computer science (hardware, programming, etc.) and would therefore be under the IT umbrella. Your definition of IT seems to be limited to systems administration which, to be fair, could be valid if a job description was being written.
I think science yields technologies. To use these technologies, we need to have an engineering discipline. What the students need to know is which one of these they want to further their careers in?
Maybe it’s just me, but wasn’t the von Neuman architecture introduced at GCSE O-Level?
Eddy
Vicks,
I’m sorry to hear that you did not have a good learning experience at HSC.
I did not even get to do CS at HSC because RCPL did not have a class for it. So, despite my excellent marks in CS at SC, I had to abandon my ambition and go for “science” — a testament to how computing was overlooked in the national education programme back then. Of course, my grades were a mess in HSC because I was rote-learning subjects that I was not interested in at all.
Eddy
Avinash,
Pulling your leg, some car designers who do not drive have a completely flawed idea of how a car should be driven ;-) They need to try their own designs sometimes to stay in touch with reality.
Eddy
Hi Eddy,
Me too, I did not do Computer Studies at HSC level even though I was first in Mauritius at SC level as the subject was not even offered at RCC at that time! It was around 1991.
Another thing which bothers me here in Mauritius is the level of studies. When I was a student in France, I followed extremely tough modules… but I managed to pass after lots of personal work (and lots of my friends failed). The level of maths, for instance, was very high. I wonder whether we may be too lenient here… and I wonder why?!?
Ah! We’ve got something in common. Was Mr Poorun your teacher? If I remember well, we did not even finish the SC curriculum, and the computer room designated for CS was appalling — its location in an old dusty store-room, proof of the little interest that the school was giving it to the subject.
Around the same time, I travelled to St Joseph College every Thursday, sneaked in their [impressive] computer-room with the help of my cousin and his CS teacher, who was turning a blind eye, just so I could use their BBC Micros.
Eddy
At last, we have something in common :-)
In fact, I did CS privately i.e. by myself. Funnily (?), I learnt Pascal by myself (by dumping turbo.exe and, thus, learning about the keywords!) and wrote two applications to be submitted. The first one was a complete Mastermind game and the second one an encryption software.
Unfortunately, the RCC teacher (who did not know Pascal!) told me he was not going to vet my programs (this was required by Cambridge even though I was a private student). He told me to rewrite everything in BASIC and, of course, I couldn’t be bothered.
So I just submitted a stupid School Management (you know, students, teachers, classes, marks etc.) app I wrote when I was in Form IV I think.
And I came out first! Maybe I should thank the teacher after all :-)
At that time, I had my first computer. It was a Intel 8088 PC running at 8MHz with 640kb of RAM and a CGA colour monitor. And it was great as it was so damn easy to program something nice (the level of expectation was lower at that time…)
Hey nowadays things has changed! At HSC Level you have 2 projects one database and another practical programming project!
But why is a knowledge of Maths so important?? Will a software engineer/system analyst or system administrator use maths daily??
Our divergent views of computing? While you chose algorithmic programs (games and encrypters), I wrote management programs.
I wrote a booking application in dBase III (remained my favourite for some years before VB came along), which I submitted as my SC project. I still remember the after-school visits to the hospital to talk to staff and pick up forms.
dBase was great. It had a great IDE, did not require SQL and foreign keys, and it ran fine on my 8088, too. (I think we already established we both had Sanyo PCs :-) ) The cool thing is, I was introduced to dBase from my sister’s lecture notes when she was a student at the UoM. Later on, I bought a Clipper programming book from which I learned the rest.
I have fond memories of CGA monitors, like watching porn flicks from 20 feet away to get some kind of dithering effect… *sigh*
We need a post about first steps in computing for people to remember their beginnings :-)
To chervine:
As Eddy said, I am algorithmically-inclined :-)
My personal belief is that the most interesting parts of computer science (i.e. information and computation) are based upon extremely solid mathematical foundations (discrete maths is especially important)
In some countries, France (where I studied), Russia and even the US being examples, one has to go through at least one year of (very very) intense maths be admitted to a CS programme.
I really think that CS is just a specialization of maths (above I wrote, CS = Maths + Time + Space) and, without a strong maths component, it’s practically impossible to teach CS correctly. For example, the relational model is just maths. And learning different algorithms without appreciating their different complexities is practically stupid.
Of course, we are talking about CS here. Not IT.
Having studied mathematics both at the UoM and during my [French] BTS-IG course, I can confirm that the level taught in the French curriculum is much, much harder. Sadly, I remember almost nothing from either lectures.
As a sidenote, does anyone remember learning bases in the early years of primary school?
We had to learn base 2 (binary), base 8 (octal), and base 10 (decimal) in mathematics classes during the early years, then it disappeared completely from the curriculum without us even knowing what was the point of learning it. It only came back to me when I started programming.
@ Eddy Nice Idea, i’m eager to learn it from a Mauritian point of view!
@Avinash: You are the lecturer her, can’t argue….
To Eddy:
I remember learning about base 2 and base 8 when I was doing my CPE (1984). My students told me the other day that they learned about bases in secondary school. I’ve also noticed a tendency of syllabi being simplified by Cambridge (for instance, complex numbers have disappeared)…
To Chervine:
Check my next post :-)
Complex numbers is in the A-level maths syllabus!
Avinash,
There is a controversy surrounding the level of difficulty of the exams in Britain. Year after year, the percentage of success increases, but observers are questioning whether it is due to better education or easier examination tests.
–Eddy
To Chervine:
My mistake…
To Eddy:
What do you think?
Having sat for the HSC exams only once and not having had a look at any syllabus since, I cannot make an objective comment.
However, I can say that I think that the education system here is much better than in Mauritius. People tend to think that since Mauritian students are tested by universities in the UK, the education system in the two countries are similar. That could not be further from the truth. The subjects available to Mauritian students form only a small subset of those available here. Students have a virtually unlimited pool of career choices. For example, my young neighbour is now a trainee policeman after studying Public Services in college, and his sister is training to become a nurse in college.
I think that this large choice of careers gives young people the opportunity to get into a field that they like and will perform well instead of being coralled into specific ones as in Mauritius. Ask anyone in Mauritius what they want to do, and the typical answer you will get is “become a software developer/doctor/dentist/lawyer/economist/accountant”. Ask a youth over here, and you could get romantic answers, like “I want to be a fireman/policeman”!
–Eddy
:p @ yung,
Indeed dBase III rule, the thing programing thing i learnt and that got me to like programming at that time, i remember it was truly wonderful being able to create something in the computer (and something that worked :p). But then i am not old like you guys :p, and wasn supposed to be dBase III, but the teacher wanted us to learn that instead of foxpro or access :p, thank god h did.
@avinash:
As far as the maths… huh nevermind, no comments
+S3|
Avinash,
I’m curious— How is the quality of the writing in the assignments that your students turn in?
The reason I ask is, lately I’ve been reading many blogs from UoM and UTM students, and to be honest, I’m appalled by the poor quality of English of many of those. I’m not saying that these bloggers should write perfect English (or French), but as future scientists and IT consultants, they will be brought to produce reports that present information as effectively as possible. Yet, I can see a high proportion of “txt speak” which is not only hard to read by anyone other than hardcore texters, but also lack structure and evidence of any clear-thinking behind.
I’ll probably get flamed for this, but I’m also hoping that it will generate some discussion.
— Eddy
Hi Eddy,
I’m sure you’ll get lots of answers from students :-)
My opinion is that it’s true students use of a lot of “txt speak” (on their websites, in the emails they send me, etc.) but not in their assignments or reports.
What is more troublesome is that sometimes I notice a lot of plagiarism in the reports. For instance, in the final year report, the “background study” part, which is supposed to be a comparative study of various technologies, is sometimes just a lot of copy-paste from websites without any form of continuity and/or coherence…
:p sa c vrai, reading ‘txt speek’ is hard to read.
well the chart looks like a simple life cycle, if it repeats itself in 20 years it would be amazing, but i think more like 10 years will be the next boost.
i was a CS student, but a career wise it wasn’t going to get me anywhere, that was in 2003.
most of the IT work also relates on how the market and how willing customers are ready to take up new technology, the consumer drives the cash flow for future expansion.
IBM and microsoft can build windows ‘extraordinaire; but if businesses do not see the need to implement it to benefit the consumer/customer then windows ‘extraordinaire’ become ‘simple’
suck is life.
after reading a few education based topics, i can honestly say that GEN X is the major cause of all this nonsense, my parents (both highly qualified professionals) still see education (learning english, french, evs) as being the most important thing in life, well in their days that was important but when the content hasn’t been evolving, then we are unfortunately being educated in caveman studies.
the importance for us as a small nation is to understand the principle of education, the values that it provides, life isn’t about being the big boss, but rather balancing both.
our gen has choice, a creation of GEN X, so if our problem is choice, then we have no one to blame but them, but im not blaming them, i love choice.
but the narrow mentality has to change.
“IT is like driving a car. Everyone should know how to drive a car. CS is like being a car designer. Few will do that. And you’ll only be successful if you have the right aptitudes and mindset. And, of course, what you need to learn in order to become a car designer has nothing to do with what you need to learn to know how to drive. [b]It’s even perfectly possible to have a car designer who does not know how to drive![/b]â€
hope html tags work, im so sorry, i so wouldn’t be driving a car designed by my uncle who has been selling gato piment who likes to design cars.
and im sure you would like to have a car designer that at least knows how a car is supposed to look like.
this sadly where programmers will never understand their role in corporate machines, not throwing names, but programmers/developers simply do no know the importance of what a program can do or not, they do not understand the meaning of it, for them it’s all about programming and solving the problem.
it is like most things in life, some people are meant to be bus drivers and some executives. they are just being used by ‘someone else’ to do a job they are better at.